Ira: 0:04

Hello and welcome. I am Ira Gordon and, along with Stacee Santi, the host of The Accidental Entrepreneurs podcast. We each previously founded successful companies Along the way. We became business owners and eventually sold those businesses despite us having no real background in business or ever even planning to become entrepreneurs. In other words, we did this all despite originally having no idea what we were doing or getting ourselves into. In each episode of this podcast, we will share stories and tips from our journey and we'll answer a randomly chosen question about our experience. Let's jump right into the show.

Stacee: 0:41

Ira, you had some pretty exciting happenings in your life yesterday. Tell us all about it.

Ira: 0:48

My goodness, Stacee, this was one of the greatest things ever. As you know, I am a big-time nerd when it comes to everything radiation. As a radiation oncologist, one of the things I have always wanted to do for nearly 20 years is to create these things called Lichtenberg figures, which are essentially trees that are created within plastic by the discharge of radiation. You can't really do this with a typical linear accelerator that's used for treating patients, because you have to deliver really, really high dose rates of electrons beyond what they'll let you do for typical safety reasons. You would never do that to a patient.

Stacee: 1:39

Just so regular people can understand, can you give us the dummy version of what a linear accelerator does?

Ira: 1:49

It is a radiation treatment machine. It is what people that are going to receive radiation for cancer ailments would be treated with. What it does is it imparts onto electrons, which are tiny charged particles, a large amount of energy so that they can penetrate and treat things like tumors, before typically having those electrons smashed into a target which creates X-ray photons, which are primarily usually used to treat most cancers, by sliding the target that usually creates those photons, as well as this big piece of lead called a flattening filter, out of the way you can treat with a really high-energy electron beam. You only do this when you're taking out the machine, because this causes a ton of wear and tear and degradation of a lot of the parts of the machine. We are taking out the very first linear accelerator ever put in.

Ira: 2:44

In Leesburg, Virginia, we had the opportunity to do this. You set everything up. We put these pieces of acrylic in front of the beam, you turn it on. They start glowing this bright white as they're accumulating these millions of volts of charge within them. Then you tap them with a grounded piece of metal. There's a big flash of light as it discharges. Then all these little tiny lightning flashes happen within the plastic, creating these what I think are just gorgeous tree-shaped figures within the middle of this piece of plastic. I got to do it with a bunch of my good friends and colleagues that I worked with for many years. Truly one of these bucket list items that I can finally say I've done. I've got a nice collection now of acrylic Lichtenberg figures for my personal enjoyment and maybe for a few gifts.

Stacee: 3:47

Those of you listening, you can't see Ira's face. He is literally smiling from ear to ear. He's so happy.

Ira: 3:54

This is as animated as I probably ever get. I'm pretty low-key, but I just can't help but smile.

Stacee: 4:01

We know what your family is getting for Christmas. You're way ahead of the game for Christmas 2024.

Ira: 4:06

I'm not giving these away to my family. These are for special radiation nerds only.

Stacee: 4:13

That sounds like a pretty amazing day. I had a less amazing day, as I am dealing with COVID. I'm on day nine. I don't feel that bad, but my voice probably sounds a little weird. It's just, I don't know, annoying. I guess All right. So today's question is have you ever been sued, or have you ever had to sue anyone Anything with a lawyer? Let's hear what you have to say about that, Ira.

Ira: 4:47

Right. I have done lots of things with lawyers mostly contracts and I remember when my partner once told me said you know, Ira, if, instead of spending all this money creating contracts with lawyers, we just put that money aside into a fund that we would potentially spend on the lawyers if we have a dispute and need to hire them, we'd be much better off, which I think is sound, and I've never had the courage of those convictions to actually proceed that way, but I thought it was interesting advice. Why don't I let you go first, Stacee, since I've been talking a little bit?

Stacee: 5:21

I guess there's been kind of two times I've encountered this situation. One is when I had to sue somebody, and then the other was when someone was toying with the idea of suing me, and so the story goes it's all about the name of the company Vet2Pet. That's what I named, the company VET, the number 2, PET, and the number two is kind of significant here because I think that was unique. And in the early, early days of I was trying to blindly stumble my way through the startup scene and I was talking to lots of people about my idea and thinking at this point some of the big players would be a good strategic partner for me, and one of the players I pitched to was AVImark, which was a owned by Covetrus. Back then it was owned by a different entity, the McAllister Brothers from Henry Schein, and I pitched to them and I had a call with them and I showed them a lot of what I was doing and ultimately they were super nice about it and they passed on it and it never materialized into anything. Then, fast forward maybe five or six years, they ended up partnering with a company that was doing similar to what we were doing as far as client reminder systems and in a mobile app format, and they were rebranding it to be PET2VET with the number two.

Stacee: 7:13

And you know, I'm like what the heck? They stole my name. This is what I think a logical person would think. Like they stole my name, they knew what I was doing. We're causing maybe some pain to them, and so they're gonna come back and try to squash us like a big behemoth would. And I sent emails and it wasn't really. I wasn't really getting any responses, so I had to get an attorney. We finally had to issue a cease and desist to them, and then that got their attention right. And then what ends up happening is kind of nice and funny and doesn't normally work out this way. The one of the head guys over there at Covetrus called me up and he's like you know what? We had no idea. So hold on, there's a jet going over.

Ira: 8:10

Just doing a little air show over your place.

Stacee: 8:12

Now there's another jet going down. So, side note, this is kind of funny. My dad and mom bought a house about 15 minutes away from me here in.

Stacee: 8:24

I thought you were gonna say bought a jet no here in the Phoenix area and their house is right in the Luke Air Force flight pattern and this really bothers my father a lot. And so he called Luke Air Force Base and asked them if they could please change their flight patterns, because it was really disturbing to him and mom when they're watching TV and doing so. The colonels like "no, sir, no, Mr Santy, we cannot change our flight pattern. We've been here a lot longer than you have. This guy calls me up and he's telling me we had no idea. We are super sorry, we would never want to. You know, squash an entrepreneur. He's like we're going to take the name down. And then they were so nice he said send me the bills, I'll pay your attorney fees for this. It shouldn't have happened, it's fantastic.

Ira: 9:31

Hey, a happy having to sue somebody story.

Stacee: 9:35

Yeah, I pretty much just had to do it to get their attention. Then the other time that it happened was I had a tagline on my company it said "for vets, by vets, and I never thought that could be like a trademarked phrase or anything. But apparently Paul Pion from Venn, the veterinary information network, was using that same tagline for years and years before me and I didn't know and I got wind that he was pretty mad about it and to me as a young veterinarian who grew up on his platform, I was horrified to think that the inventor of Venn would be upset with me. And I knew somebody who knew him and it got back to me that he was pretty ticked off with me and so I reached out to him and I just told him I'm super sorry, I didn't know. Like you were so attached to that, I didn't even know you're using it. It didn't cross my mind. So we changed our tagline Like he was clearly there first.

Ira: 10:47

I've known Paul from VIN for many years. He actually reached out to us very soon after we had launched Vet Prep and he was located in Davis, California, where I was doing my residency, and met with us and he's always been really gracious and reasonable and have enjoyed knowing him for many years, so I'm glad that things worked out between the two of you.

Stacee: 11:10

Yeah, me too. How about you?

Ira: 11:14

Well, I have had a couple of minor, similar trademark disputes. But perhaps more interesting was that when we launched VetPrep we had decided that we wanted it to be a product that people could use and wouldn't necessarily have to pay for serially if they had to retake boards, as some people do, and we thought that the product would help people so that most people would pass their boards and not need to take it again. We developed a policy that if somebody signed up for a subscription and actually used it so they had to complete 80 percent of the course was the requirement and did not pass their board exam, that we would provide them with a free subscription for their next board exam or until they passed their board exam. We named that policy the VEP-PREP guarantee. We had a student, probably around year two of the business that didn't pass their boards and also didn't really utilize the course very much, but got in touch with us after getting a result from the board examiner that they didn't pass and told us that she held us responsible for not passing and we have this guarantee and ultimately threatened liability over not just the fees that she paid for our course or even the fees that she paid to take her board exam, but over potential loss to wages by not being a licensed veterinarian.

Ira: 12:55

It was a little bit scary. They also filed a complaint with someone like the Better Business Bureau. We had to push back and say this is really clearly described as what our policy is and what this person is alleging our responsibility for is not reasonable and ultimately they backed off. We didn't end up having to go to court and fight it, but it was a little bit of a cautionary tale about being careful about the wording that you choose and how clearly you define your policies Again, the types of things that you lean on lawyers for to help write up all of your fine print, your terms and conditions and all of those things. But fortunately didn't become a big to do but was a scary thing in the early days. We didn't have the resources to fight a lawsuit or to make a big payout to someone with an unreasonable complaint.

Stacee: 13:56

Well, it seems to me that you're going to have to have a lawyer. If you're starting up a company and you intend to do something with this company, unfortunately, you're going to have to have a lawyer because these things are going to happen. But one thing I learned is you get to help advise the lawyer how you want to be represented, so you can either be a bulldog or you can be like hey, let's try to work it out with them, and I didn't realize at first that the lawyer needs you to tell them how aggressive you want to be and they'll do whatever you want them to do. They're gun for hire, basically, and if there is any way you can work it out with somebody, you should try. Hopefully, they have the same thoughts.

Stacee: 14:45

Oftentimes, though, I say pick up the phone and the emails are so in the text, texting. You're probably not going to be texting someone in this situation, but you're definitely going to be emailing, and if you could get to the head honcho and you're the head honcho a lot of times I think more can happen here. Do you think so?

Ira: 15:05

I think phone calls are typically where good things are discussed and emails are typically where bad things are discussed, and so if you want this to be, a bad thing, you should discuss it over email, and if you want it to be a good thing, you should give somebody a call.

Stacee: 15:24

Oh, I love it All right. Well, now we're at the part of the program where we are going to share a favorite tip, trick book quote person what you got for us today.

Ira: 15:35

I don't know, Stacee. I didn't come prepared today to answer this question, so why don't you go first and give me a moment to think?

Stacee: 15:41

Okay, no problem. One of my favorite things that I discovered is this podcast called "How to be Awesome at your Job, and it's such a nice little podcast. They have almost 1000 episodes now and they just interview different people different business people, different leaders or all kinds of individuals that are making a difference in how to be more productive in your work life, and I got so many ideas from this podcast and I would just listen to it when I take my dogs for a walk or go to the gym or whatever, and I can't even begin to tell you how many great little nuggets I got from this. One of my favorite episodes is when he interviews a gal that had written a book called Hack the Bureaucracy, and I love this book. I can't recommend it enough. It's short, little one to two page sections, which is perfect if you just have a, you know, want to do a small bit of reading, with very practical tips on how to interact with large organizations when you're trying to communicate with them or thrive inside of them, so I really recommend that podcast.

Ira: 17:01

I would love to recommend almost anything by this content creator named Kwame Christian and his I think his first book is called "Finding Confidence in Conflict how to Negotiate Anything, and I love this book. I am somebody that tries very, very hard to avoid conflict, and I have had to grow into the sort of the position of accepting that conflict is actually usually good if handled the right way, and I'm a completely embraced the notion that it's not something to be feared. But I'm getting there and I found this to be an incredibly enjoyable book for a variety of things not just for negotiating the things people typically think about negotiating, but negotiating with children, negotiating with spouses and really anything. He also has a podcast and TED talks and the like.

Ira: 18:04

One of my really most interesting takeaways from the book was a discussion that he had about confidence and authenticity and how connected the two of them are, and that was really surprising to me, because I oftentimes feel like people that are really confident don't seem very authentic.

Ira: 18:28

But his argument, which I think is a correct one, is that when you are not confident, then you give off the same cues as somebody that's lying and that detracts from your authenticity, and so things like nonverbal movements that you make when you're not confident or when you're lying are very similar and the way that you speak.

Ira: 18:56

And I reflected on that because I always had this feeling that I don't come off as authentic as other people do or as I aspire to, and I think that that's rooted in being somebody that really lacked confidence for a long time and because I've been a trainee for a long time and I'm willing to do things that I have no idea what I'm doing when I do them, and so I don't always have a lot of confidence that I've done this a bunch of times before. But as I've done things like practice medicine become a specialist practice, radiation oncology for many years, it is inescapable that I have credentials and experience that make me one of you know 100 or hundreds of people that have similar levels of expertise and training and that should make you confident. And even if you aren't sure about something, you should at least be confident that you probably know nearly as much about this as almost anybody else.

Stacee: 20:07

Well, that's funny because I would never have labeled you as someone that wasn't confident. I think that's something we are so harsh to criticize ourselves on. If you want to be more confident I guess I'm putting that in air quotes and people always have said to me like, oh, you seem so confident and I'm like I do because I don't really feel confident. But I also think it's, to your point, just important to be really authentic, and part of I learned this actually the first year being a veterinarian.

Stacee: 20:43

When people come into the exam room and you know they present a animal and it has a problem almost always and I didn't know the answer to the problem and I felt such an. I felt like such an imposter, I felt so under qualified. I felt like, oh no, now they have discovered I have no idea what I'm doing and I would try to fake it at first and like sound smarter than I was. But then, as I got more confidence, I guess, or more real with myself, I would just be able to say you know what? I don't know the answer to this question today. I don't know the. I don't know the cause of why your dog is vomiting nonstop. I think I'm going to have to run some tests and try to get more information so I could figure it out. Once I got to that level and people responded to that and I realized that's actually confidence is being yourself.

Ira: 21:42

That you know, for a long time I would take calls from veterinary clients and my wife would hear me talking to them and she would come and I was like, oh, like, you're using your doctor voice now, right, and that's different than my regular voice and I can make fun of her because she has she has a radio voice, that's what she does for work, right. But I think over time like those voices started to blend together and they're really one now. But I think that was the same thing. I think that was me trying to communicate, project and maybe even inspire in myself confidence, whereas my regular sort of day to day voice maybe didn't oftentimes have that same level of confidence.

Stacee: 22:27

Yeah, that's. I'll have to check out that. What's the name of the person again that you recommend?

Ira: 22:33

Oh, my Christian.

Stacee: 22:35

How do you say it?

Ira: 22:38

I hope I'm not getting it wrong, but I believe it's. I could spell it.

Stacee: 22:42

It's.

Ira: 22:43

KWAME and then Christian C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N.

Stacee: 22:49

Okay, I'm going to go check it All right. Well, now we're ready to spin the wheel and see what the big discussion topic will be next time.

Ira: 22:58

Can I?

Stacee: 22:58

wait, Hold the line. The question is what did it feel like when you got your first payout and what did you buy?

Ira: 23:13

Very exciting.

Stacee: 23:15

All right, we'll see you next time and we'll dig into this one. Thanks for listening to the show today. If you want to learn more about my story or Ira's story, be sure to check out episodes two and three, and if you are an accidental entrepreneur and would like to be a guest co-host on the show and spin the wheel, just message BEACOHOST no spaces to 1-833-463-9727 and tell us your story. See you next time.