Ira: 0:40

Welcome to the Accidental Entrepreneurs Podcast. We have another episode with our esteemed colleague and friend, Dr. Cindy Trice, who is the founder of Relief Rover, a software service for relief veterinarians, as well as Kick it Pajamas, which provides comfortable and functional pajamas for females that need to be in treatment in the hospital for a variety of reasons, and had a great conversation about your journey very recently. But, yeah, how have things been going lately?

Cindy: 1:14

Everything has been going really well. I'm somehow figuring out how to juggle, kick it and working for Hound and we you know we've talked about this before. I'm in the elder care years of my life. I got a new puppy, so now I have three dogs. But honestly, like, even with all of that busy-ness in my life, I can't complain. My life is actually really good.

Ira: 1:41

That is fantastic, actually really good. That is fantastic. I was thinking about the fact that it's been a little bit less than a year since Relief Rover was acquired by Hound, and that means that you are working for somebody else now. How's that going?

Cindy: 1:58

Well, I will tell you. So many of my friends were like wait, you're going to be an employee. And I was like yeah.

Cindy: 2:04

And they're like wait, wait, no, are you sure, Cindy? I don't know if you can do it, because the truth is, I have spent very little of my working life since graduating from undergrad as an employee. The rest of my working life and I'm 55 years old has been freelance. So that is why my family and my friends were like oh God, Cindy's not going to be a good employee. She doesn't know how to be an employee.

Ira: 2:33

Finally getting a W-2.

Cindy: 2:35

Yes, and I will tell you like, okay, yeah, speaking of a W-2, I'm like what. I don't have to pay quarterly taxes, this awesome, so that part. And then the fact that, like the money just like falls into your bank account, you know, rather than I'm like not getting all these checks from different hospitals and then taking a picture and putting it in like, oh yeah, all these modern ways of getting money into my bank account and then it happens on a regular cadence rather than, you know, just very variable, like it does when you're a relief vet. So, honestly, I have been enjoying it, probably far more than certainly people who know me expected, and even probably more than I expected myself.

Ira: 3:27

Yeah, I remember when we sold my veterinary practices and went from sort of working for myself to being an employee for another group and it really felt like this big kind of weight of responsibilities was kind of alleviated.

Ira: 3:44

Like I still felt very much responsible for the practices and had a leadership responsibility in those practices, but I like I wasn't on my own anymore with respect to those responsibilities and and the reason that felt good is because, yeah, I knew and I liked the additional leaders that were now helping me and that ultimately would be making decisions that would affect me, and so I knew that they were making good decisions and were factoring my opinion into those decisions and the like. I feel like if that wasn't the case, the actual burden of those responsibilities might feel even greater because I'd feel like I have to protect my practice from these other forces that are outside, but instead I felt like you know, there's all these other forces that are doing my job for me. So I think if you feel like that weight has been lifted, that's probably a really good sign that you have confidence and a good relationship with the people that are now helping lead your old company.

Cindy: 4:41

Yes, it's about way more than not having to pay quarterly taxes. It is about that lift, the lift of not having the whole weight of it on my shoulders. But it's also the fact that, you know, I loved the team that we built at Relief Rover. I love, love those people and I was lucky enough that two of them came along with us and now we're for Hound and the and. So I think that's been just such a gift and they've been amazing contributors to Hound and I love the Hound team Like this is. I love working with a bigger team, right, I love that we have, you know, these, these developers. Actually, I worked with developers that we really liked for Relief Rover, but they were outside contractors and so having developers as part of the team and our leadership team is amazing and our customer success and product and we have all these departments. It's still not a big company, but it's bigger than really Forever was, and and we have this division of labor, which is really nice, where people who are expert at what they're doing that's what they're doing, and and then, but it's still very you know we're small enough that we're still very cohesive as a team.

Cindy: 6:02

I think when people think well, when I think of myself. I hope this doesn't what I'm about to say doesn't stop me from ever getting a job at a corporation, if I happen to want that. But I think where I would have a problem is that I've never worked for a big company, ever. So the layers, you know, all the different. I still, when I talk to corporate groups and I'm like I get so confused about people's roles and what that means. And sometimes, when things are so big like that, I've just never been in that kind of environment. So I don't understand it and I don't think I would thrive in that kind of environment. I very do. I very much like the, the creative startup. You know we're, we're building something small together and I think once things get too big I might not be the right person for that kind of company.

Ira: 6:57

Yeah, I found that for me and probably, I think maybe for other people that have an entrepreneurial like mindset, that being at a big company and being in sort of maybe upper leadership, but not like senior executive leadership, is a weird place to be, because things are happening and important decisions are being made and you're just sort of told what those decisions are sometimes and you're not actually involved in to sort of have that happening outside of even your involvement but you're aware of, you have enough awareness and experience to sort of know about it, is you just feel like you're you're missing out a little bit and and it's hard whereas at a smaller company especially if you're are sort of more in that senior executive leadership level, like you're part of that team, like you don't feel like.

Ira: 8:03

The way I feel when, when I was in that senior executive leadership level, like you're part of that team, like you don't feel like and the way I feel when I was in that role is like I just feel like there's secrets that I'm not privy to at this business and I really don't like it. I like being part of a team where you know like we all shared everything together and we didn't need to have secrets from each other, but once you hit a certain size of company, that's really not practical to do, right?

Cindy: 8:26

Yeah, exactly.

Ira: 8:28

Is there anything that you miss now that you no longer sort of a solopreneur there?

Cindy: 8:35

I mean I certainly miss seeing the team members that didn't come along with us to Hound, because you know you just develop close relationships with the people that you're working with all the time. Now, I didn't have they weren't employees, they were all contractors but that doesn't mean we didn't, you know, develop strong relationships. So I do miss that, but maybe there are certain times I might miss the ability to make some kind of unilateral decision, but not that much.

Ira: 9:13

Yeah, yeah, I would say yeah, I felt the same same way for a couple of years, a few years after the sale of our practices, and then, ultimately, when some bigger changes happened and decisions were made, I started to sort of have a bigger appreciation for the fact that, like, oh you know, I really did sort of lose control over the trajectory of some things. But I can't really complain. I mean, I think overall things went uh went extremely well. I guess that brings us to our question to discuss today, cindy, which is what did you like the least about being a founder?

Cindy: 9:56

Probably I well, this is going to sound probably terrible, but once I started okay, there was a shift. There was a shift when I'm so excited about this idea and I'm so excited about what I want to do to help people right, to help the relief community Just that made me wake up every morning, like I was saying before, and just like open my eyes, so excited to start the day. Once it shifted into where it started to feel like I was having to sell it and I started feeling like, oh, I'm selling which I know this really doesn't. It doesn't. I'm afraid this isn't going to come off right. But I also have a feeling other founders will understand. It seems like, okay, as a founder, you should like 100% believe in what you're doing and be able to sell it Like selling it shouldn't be, it should just be super easy because you really believe in what you do.

Cindy: 11:02

But what I will say is, when you have a two-sided marketplace, both sides of that marketplace do not what they want, does not always line up, and, and your job is to figure out where it does line up and and emphasize that and and try to make that work. But it doesn't always line up, so, um. So here's this is maybe it's an example that popped into my head. So, um, I, recently I'm on the board of the NAVC and we were, you know, they've they've done some surveys with conference goers and they've done surveys with exhibitors, and um, conference goers want the exhibit hall to be open longer, um, more hours and more days, and exhibitors, surprisingly, want the exhibit hall open less hours and for fewer days. Right, so you have these, you know.

Cindy: 11:55

But but you, you need these people to come together, because that's sort of part of the point. And so it's like how do you make these two sides happy? And so it's like, how do you make these two sides happy? So to me that was very stressful to make these two sides happy, particularly when one side of your marketplace is free and the other side of the marketplace is who pays? And it is very tempting to cater to the paying side, to cater to the paying side, but that isn't. Even though on the surface that seems like the right thing to do, it isn't always the right thing to do. You have to think about the people's motivations for why they're there and what matters to them, and you have to make decisions, the right decisions, based on that, so you don't alienate one side or the other. So in some ways I don't miss being totally responsible for navigating or by myself navigating that we still navigated it out, but I'm not trying to navigate that by myself navigate that by myself?

Ira: 13:09

Yeah, I'm thinking about, well, I don't have a Facebook account, but like a social media company that has, they have users who are not the paying customer they're what they're selling right and what they want from that experience and then they have advertisers who are actually paying them the dollars and what those two groups want from a social media company are probably in massive opposition from each other and they have to navigate that in a way without um pissing one group off, and they don't usually do that very well. I don't think, um, and it's not easy to do either. Yeah, that's super interesting.

Ira: 13:45

I think for me, the thing that I disliked the most about being a founder was like sort of the loneliness of it at times.

Ira: 13:59

You're, you know I was lucky at VetPrep that I had a great little team, but most of our time we were, we were remote and, um, and some of my other experiences has been more on my own at times, and you know, when things are hard or challenging, like you can call a friend or you can talk to a loved one and that's extremely helpful and very much appreciated.

Ira: 14:23

But you know, ultimately, like you sort of feel like you're on your own and you have all these worries and problems and stresses that are sort of uniquely yours to bear and that you have a lot of responsibility for, and so that for me I think was the hardest part. So that for me I think was the hardest part. I can sort of relate to your comments about some of the challenges of kind of having to be a salesman for the product and, yeah, mostly tried to take the approach of, you know, try to build something that's going to sell itself, which we were lucky enough to do at vet prep. But I have certainly grown in my evolution and thinking about just the whole concept of of sales. Um, never really thought of my sale myself as a salesman, as a veterinarian, but you know I mean of course a hundred percent are and if

Ira: 15:18

you can't sell your services to a client, you cannot help the animal that's in front of you, like yeah, it's just a fact. And and so I have come to very much appreciate the skill set of sales and and it's not me, I think, is sort of the thing that always kind of makes me a little bit uneasy about that sort of aspect of things but it's actually something I've tried to develop in my own way right as an entrepreneur, and I think you sort of have to yeah, you do have to and I, you know, I tried to develop it in very formal ways by reading books and listening to podcasts and taking courses and things like that.

Cindy: 16:07

But then you're right, there is, there is a way that you can make it your own right, like make it your, your own, your own style. But I, I'm 100% with you on the loneliness piece, like that Also, especially before I had a team, when I was literally doing it by myself, and you know, that was when it was nice to talk to other entrepreneurs and because at least I was talking to people who would get it right, they would understand, you know, versus talking to, you know, my family, who may or may not truly understand what it feels like. But you're right, at the end of the day, it's yours alone to bear, and that could be tricky, all right.

Ira: 17:10

Well, we have a tradition in every episode that at the end of the episode, we take a moment to share a resource, piece of advice, a mentor, a book, a tool that has helped you along the way. So I'll give you the opportunity to go first.

Cindy: 17:32

Okay, Well, I have a book I wanted to share and then I have a quote. Can I do? Am I allowed to do both?

Ira: 17:39

You can do double duty.

Cindy: 17:40

Okay, so the book is called "Humor Seriously, why humor is a secret weapon in business and life. Oh, I like it and I took a course from this woman. Okay, and so she is a.

Ira: 17:55

Do you know?

Cindy: 17:56

her name, yeah, Naomi Bagdonis and Jennifer Aker. So they teach at Stanford and Ivan Zak talked me into doing the Stanford LEAD program, which I, because he had done it, and I did it and it was amazing and this was one of the courses and I'm so glad I took it. But basically it's it's really about how humor can lead to increased trust, can you know, and can really move you forward in business when it's used appropriately. And also I love the point that the bar is really low, because business people tend to take themselves too seriously and I would say sometimes vet med does too Like. I feel like in vet med there's like all sorts of fodder for humor, right.

Ira: 18:44

Absolutely. We deal with some pretty gross stuff and if you can't have a sense of humor about it like you're going to struggle.

Cindy: 18:52

And a lot of vets do have a sense of humor in veterinary teams, right, but I also think that there are ways that we could, as a veterinary profession, lighten up.

Cindy: 19:02

So, anyway, this book was really, really impactful for me in the class. And then the quote is from Seth Godin, and I pulled it up because I was anticipating this question. But so he's talking about, you know, having something win big and fast, right, like a business win big and fast or not, and that big and fast and going viral quickly and having everyone catch on really quickly isn't always the best way, and sometimes I needed to be reminded of that, and so this came in my inbox one day and I printed it out and look at it all the time. But the first challenge is finding the focus and patience to work on the asynchronized adoption of important ideas, and the second is to not sacrifice the larger goal in a frenzied hustle for the big break. And I needed to read that over and over, because it's easy to lose sight of that when you feel like I got to do this fast and you know all these other people are doing it too and you know it is easy to get very stressed out by that idea.

Ira: 20:12

So that's, that's really cool. Um, I was just thinking about some of your comments about humor and the in the business world and I remember that, um, I used to tell people when they would be interviewing for positions in my veterinary oncology office and, as you might imagine, veterinary oncology is certainly one of those places that can be very serious and heavy at times but I think it's actually also a place where, like, frankly, like humor is still needed at times to sort of, you know, just to kind of deal with the realities that you deal with. And I used to tell people that you know we take our job very seriously, but we don't take ourselves that seriously.

Stacee: 20:57

Right.

Ira: 20:59

And I thought that was sort of how I would try to look at things. And you know, as you know, like I can behave professionally and I genuinely care a lot about people and their pets and want to help them and, at the same time, like being able to sort of recognize when things are happening that you know they just have to be able to sort of recognize when things are happening. That you know you just have to be able to sometimes chuckle out a bit and yeah, otherwise you're just going to drown. Yeah, my influential person that I want to mention for today's episode is Cheryl London.

Ira: 21:38

Cheryl London is a veterinary oncologist you know, really unique, strong personality and one of the sort of finest scientists and just kind of you know knowledgeable person when it comes to all of the molecular stuff that goes into cancer biology.

Ira: 22:02

And what I remember the most about my time working with her was her ability, without any notes or any sort of you know prompting and preparation, to just kind of go up to a whiteboard and start to like draw a cell and a detailed sort of molecular pathway and talk about how a certain you know drug or agent you know would work and would have a specific effect or what have you, and it just kind of solidified for me this notion that when you really really know something extremely well, like you can explain it in ways that you know make sense.

Ira: 22:51

And I think you know there's plenty of sort of quotes about this, you know from I think Einstein has a quote that along the lines of like, if, um, if you can't explain something very well, you must not know it well enough, or something like that, right, um, but uh, yeah, that was what. One of the things that that she impressed upon me was like you really want to know what you're talking about at such a detailed level that like you could go up without any notes and basically draw the whole thing out, and then you will have the ability to sort of explain, explain things to anybody, right, um?

Cindy: 23:29

and I always, um, yeah, think about that from time to time, and I appreciate her for many reasons, but that included yes, I, I do remember her from from Davis, but, yeah, yeah, that is a skill and that is when you you've taken the time to not be superficial about knowing everything, but to dive deep on on something. Those of us that are professional samplers like myself, you know, we may not be able to draw things out like that.

Ira: 24:04

You know what you? Know, Well, Cindy, it's been amazing to have the opportunity to catch up and chat, and I thank you for your time and for joining us on these episodes of the Accidental Entrepreneurs.

Cindy: 24:16

Super fun. Thank you so much for having me.